What does the “vocational expert” do at a Social Security hearing?

I just had my hearing on wednesday. I have Always been depressed as far as remembered. I have anxiety disorder as well as bipolar disorder, o.c.d & other issues. including the fact I am a recovering meth addict (2 yrs clean) Feb,8. 2006 I overdosed on liquid morphine. I died. After an 8 hr coma I awoke. I have brain damage now, I was not supposed to live!
-My point: During my hearing the questions directed at me where surrounding the facts of my past meth use. If I can take care of my daughter. things like this. I was not asked once about my time in hospital, how i have to write Everything down or i go in circles, or how everyday (even with the help of prozac) that I cant help but feel I am a wasted space! I am scared because I did not get a chance to spit out the things I was NOt able to remember that effect my life everyday! i fear after waiting 2-1/2 years that this hearing probably got me nowhere. at the end the ssi lady named off a couple things saying Un-skilled light… then after all she mentioned maybe light night janitorial. I am trying to have my attorney somehow submit the important info that was left out, before her decision is made. Think I can re-do the hearing/have a chance to submit documents to judge?

“Think I can re-do the hearing/have a chance to submit documents to judge?”

Maybe. But be prepared to submit additional post-hrg evidence from your treating source about the dysfunction caused by the non-exertional impairment, since the GRIDs can not be used when non-exertional impairments are eleged. It will used, if your atty. file an appeal. Falls Church LOVES remands based in newly submitted evidence.

That's great! However, the judge at the hearing typically asks the vocational expert several questions — several hypotheticals. If the vocational expert said there was no jobs for *any* of the hypotheticals, then I would say it looks good.
I will keep my fingers crossed for you. Good luck!

It all depends on which hypothetical the judge ends up using. At almost every hearing I have seen, one hypothetical allows some work, one precludes all work and one is somewhere in the middle.

Just because one hypothetical resulted in the vocational expert saying there was not work, does not mean the judge will use that hypothetical in making his/her decision.

Good luck on the appeal.

Disability is not a choice. Pain causes mental anguish and is hard to deal with if not impossible to deal with at a job. When people have had enough, their mental anguish resorts to violence. If you've got nothing left, you've got nothing to loose. The system needs to get its head out of its rear end and get moving toward a solution.

They could have been talking about an erosion in the job base. An erosion is a percentage decrease in the number of available jobs. For example a vocational expert may testify that based on a particular limitation, the number of specific jobs in an industry drops by, say, 50%. So instead of there being 15,000 available jobs, there are only 7,500 available jobs.

An erosion does not necessarily mean SSA will approve or deny a case. Most of the time it depends on the FINAL number of jobs remaining.

Check out http://www.socialsecurityinsider.com/2008/10/vocational-expert-voodoo/

“Non-competitive” refers to the kind of work. Competitive work is, well, just regular work; with no set-asides, no accommodations beyond the norm. Work that is set aside for disabled individuals (for example: work through Goodwill Industries) is typically viewed as “non-competitive.” Social Security only considers competitive work in deciding disability cases. If an individual is not able to perform “competitive work” or is “limited to non-competitive employment” or if there is “no competitive work available” that is usually a good sign for a disability case. Of course, I cannot comment on the specifics of your case (see the disclaimer page). Also, keep in mind that the judge often asks the vocational expert several hypothetical questions with different sets of limitations. There could be “no competitive work” under one set of limitations, but there could still be work possible under another set of limitations. What I am saying that while hearing “non-competitive work” come up in a hearing is usually a good sign, it does not automatically mean the case will be approved.

Good luck

Mr Stasiuk, lets say they approve my SSI what date will they use for my disability? They day I was involved in a car accident? They day I applied for SSI? Or my hearing date? Secondly, what is the truth about the 5 month waiting perid? Someone should write and easy to understand booklet about SSI.

Thank you for your reply so quickly. The VE did give three hypothetical; however, the first two I could not do because of my limitiations. They did bring up one of my former jobs; however, the judge asked him if I could do that job and that is when the VE said I was non-competitive. I was a oil field worker and a CDL driver and those two jobs I could not do. My last job was when I was in college and did telemarketing. That was the last job they mentioned and that is when the VE said I was non0competitive. Thanks for your input

I handle cases across the Colorado front range. However, my office is in Colorado Springs. Check out the “About” and “Contact” tabs if you are interested in more information about my office.

It’s hard to say. It sounds ALJ does not feel she needs VE testimony either to approve (or to deny) the case. VE testimony is typically necessary at Step 5 – other work. http://www.socialsecurityinsider.com/2009/03/how-social-security-reviews-cases-the-5-step-sequential-evaluation-process/

However, not always. If an individual’s limitations fit within the Medical-Vocational Guidelines, the ALJ can decide a case at step 5 without VE testimony.

In short, there is not enough information to tell. I would have to have been at the hearing to get a read on the judge to be able to evaluate whether this suggests the judge leaning to approving or denying the case.

Well my case is at the appeals court were my lawyer had me sign more papers for ssdi. He said when the appeals court denies my claim he will refile. Guess that means I’m out of luck at the appeals court. Been 6years since I applied. This is about the stupides thing I’ve heard of taking this long. Our country sends billions of dollars overseas but the American citizen who needs help is just out of luck. Obama said we are the best country in the world. Thats true becausse we give all our money to outsiders and pork for all the idiots in congress. Think they would be a little more considerate of all the disabled workers who spent their life building this suppose to be great country.

I am sorry for all the trouble you are having with Social Security. Six year is a long wait.

Well after 6 years I finally got denied from the appeals court. So what is my next step?

Presumably you mean that it has taken 6 years from when you applied and not that your case has been pending at the Appeals Council for 6 years. A 6 year wait at the AC level would be quite unusual.

If an individual wishes to appeal an Appeals Council denial, the next appeal is normally to US District Court. The District Court appeal is quite a bit more complicated than any of the earlier appeal stages. Appealing a case to District Court is, literally, “making a Federal case out of it.” I strongly recommend working with a attorney on a District Court appeal. Note: District Court claims are something of a sub-set of Social Security claims and not every Social Security attorney handles them.

The Appeals Council decision states an individual’s rights, time limits, appeal options, and discussed the process of appealing an AC denial.

Both the judge and an individual’s attorney can pose hypotheticals to the vocational expert. It can be difficult (even when you are at the the hearing) to get a feel for which hypotheticals the judge seems to be accepting.

Since I wasn’t there, I can’t say if the judge is leaning toward accepting your lawyer’s hypotheticals or not.

If your lawyer said it went well, I am not going to contradict him/her.

Good luck!

I just realized there wasnt 3 hypotheticals…the judge asked to go over past former jobs in which the VE cited 9…after all the limitations were entered the judge asked how many of the jobs I could work and the VE stated 3 at that time I brought up my mental condition and the VE then stated I couldn’t work at all…that’s how i ended..wanted to clarify that to you. Thanks for all the blogs you post – you’re like my idol Attorney on here…hehe…

Thanks Charlene, I appreciate your kind words. I hope you win your case.

Hi Charlene. It is not a matter of “ignoring” limitations. It is that limitations have to be based on medically diagnosed impairments and consistent with the signs and findings in the medical records as well as the individual’s activities of daily living. Put another way, presenting limitations in a hypothetical to the VE, does not guarantee that the ALJ will accept those limitations.

Right. However, it is no different than physical limitations. If a VE says an individual is still able to perform the duties of a “call out operator” or “inbound telemarketer” despite needing a sit-stand option, it doesn’t really matter if the individual’s own past experience in these jobs is that their employer would not tolerate that limitations. That is, that a VE says that a particular limitation should not prevent an individual from being able to perform the duties a hypothetical job, does not help an individual find an employer who will tolerate the limitation in the real world.

However, let’s take a stop back. VEs do not testify at hearings to provide evidence that is contrary to the real world. One of their roles is to temper the often out-of-date evidence in the Dictionary of Occupational Titles with more recent job treatises and personally performed surveys of real-world jobs as they are actually performed. This is one of the VE’s chief roles at a hearing!

When there is a discrepancy between a claimant’s experience with a job and what the VE testifies to (often as to duties or which limitations would be tolerated in a job), that can be brought up during the cross examination of the VE.

Without having been there, I can’t say what the VE meant.

However, one issue is whether this was part of the answer to a single hypothetical?

Or did the VE eliminate the jobs based on additional limitations in a followup question/hypothetical.

As noted in the post, WHICH hypothetical the judge uses in the decision is anyone’s guess. Without being at the hearing, I cannot make any kind of informed guess.

As for how long it may take to get a decision, see http://www.socialsecurityinsider.com/2008/05/how-long-after-my-social-security-hearing-does-it-take-to-get-a-decision/

Social Security does not provide transcripts, however claimants and their representatives can get a copy of the recording (typically on disc).

My husband had his ssd appeal hearing only 2 weeks ago. I’ve been reading your replies to questions & everything sounds similar.  I was permitted to go into the hearing with my husband & offer testimony to his case.  My husbands lawyer was a no show. Non-the-less, the hearing seemed to go well. Before entering the hearing room we were given a CD & directed to a room to view all of the medical documentation & doctors letters etc that SS had collected in reference to my husbands case & all seemed to be in order. We were quite surprised by a few of the letters they had received from past & current doctors who treat/treated my husband for his orthopedic conditions, they all were favorable. The Vocational Expert narrowed the jobs available to my husband to 3 that may be appropriate for him.  However, at the end of the hearing the Vocational Expert was asked 2 ‘hypothetical’ questions..first being would my husband be able to perform anyof the 3  jobs with his current limitations, the answer ‘no-none’. The second question being would my husband be able to perform any of the 3 jobs while taking his current medications, the answer ‘no-none’. 

Throughout the hearing my husband & I both asked questions & I was permitted to add additional information after my husband spoke.  Before leaving the judge told my husband and I that he  found us to be very candid, that he does not see that often. At that point my husband asked him how long before he would have his decision & the judge responded that my husband would be receiving his decision very quickly. 

‘Quickly’ this word is of concern, my husband has been fighting for disability since 2004 and had been denied & denied & re-filed, etc…. I am reading about ‘decision letter writers’…this is confusing to me…can you tell me what the average wait time is for an appeal decision? 

I am 49 yr old woman. I first applied on my own in 2001, and of course was turned down. At this point I had yet to be diagnosed but was experiencing chronic widespread pain…daily. I tried to go back to work (retail) and was in and out of work until 2004 when I finally hired an atty. After 18 mos and many many surgeries I was diagnosed with Degenerative Bone Disease. I went to court in April 2005, was granted disability, only to receive a letter 3 wks later from the judge stating because I was collecting unemployment he has “serious questions regarding my credibility”. I explained in the hearing the last company I worked for was kind enough to give me a pink slip, which does not mean I can work. I appealed his decision in August of 2004, and it was sent to Va. I won the appeal in Virginia and they kicked it back to Ct. My hearing is Aug 24th with the SAME judge and today my lawyer informs me the state hired a “Vocational Expert” so she will be doing the same. I have not worked in 7 yrs. I have no health ins and the pain is ridiculous. Is this judge biased or am I paranoid?

i had my appeal and the judge asked the VE about my work history she said medium she brought up to jobs and said how many there was nationwide and locally then the judge said with missing work 2 to 3 time a week will there be any work the ve said no work the he said with concentration only 80 percent of the time will there be work the ve said no work could i possibly win my case